"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" wrote in message
...
Really? I wasn't presented with "the choice" at any time. I had to dig
around for the option. Sure I found it... but still. And it still doesn't
You can't call seeing it on the first option screen digging around.

justify the anti-conventions thing. I guess (taking IE7 as an example)
long
established norms, UI conventions and explicit guidelines are out the
window.

If you come up with a completely new UI methodology (the ribbon) which is
the first real new thing in UI design since the 1970s (menus and toolbars
were invented back then), then why should you follow some established
norms, conventions and guidelines that are much younger than that?
The Ribbon breaks the most fundamental UI concepts that are decades old.
If I had to design it, I could have also cared less for some 5-10 year old
less fundamental conventions.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]

I like the Ribbon. But you are giving it way way way too much credit. It's a
pallete. Jasc Paint Shop Pro has done it for the last 4 years (see this
screenshot http://www.cflashsoft.com/temp/psp8sc1.jpg). Even old the old
PhotoDraw orphan did it (remember him?). Office 2007's implementation of
this idea isn't even highly contextual (you have to flip the tabs around a
lot). It is a *SIMPLE* exploded menu. Sit down and think about it. They took
the old long vertical menus... and stretched them horizontally. Come on now.

What does the Ribbon have to with Office installing with a BLUE scheme on a
Windows XP set up with XP Silver anyway?

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com

I like the Ribbon. But you are giving it way way way too much credit.
It's a
pallete. Jasc Paint Shop Pro has done it for the last 4 years (see this
screenshot http://www.cflashsoft.com/temp/psp8sc1.jpg). Even old the old
That's a palette or at best a fancier toolbar.

PhotoDraw orphan did it (remember him?). Office 2007's implementation of
this idea isn't even highly contextual (you have to flip the tabs around a
lot). It is a *SIMPLE* exploded menu. Sit down and think about it. They took
the old long vertical menus... and stretched them horizontally. Come on now.
After someone came up with a great idea, it's always the case that
someone says "oh, it's just that, simply"...Yet, no one else came up
with doing it that way

What does the Ribbon have to with Office installing with a BLUE scheme on a
Windows XP set up with XP Silver anyway?
They designed the color scheme method with the new Ribbon UI.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I like the Ribbon. But you are giving it way way way too much credit.
It's a
pallete. Jasc Paint Shop Pro has done it for the last 4 years (see this
screenshot http://www.cflashsoft.com/temp/psp8sc1.jpg). Even old the old
That's a palette or at best a fancier toolbar.

PhotoDraw orphan did it (remember him?). Office 2007's implementation of
this idea isn't even highly contextual (you have to flip the tabs around
a
lot). It is a *SIMPLE* exploded menu. Sit down and think about it. They
took
the old long vertical menus... and stretched them horizontally. Come on
now.

After someone came up with a great idea, it's always the case that someone
says "oh, it's just that, simply"...Yet, no one else came up with doing it
that way

Again, I like the Ribbon... and I think the Office Team did a great job in
implementing it (after all, it's the meat of what they've done for the last
3 or 4 years... at the expense of lots of other things). I just don't see it
as "revolutionary" as you or the MS Marketing Team would like to think. From
my POV it's kinda like "Duh!!! You guys should have revamped the UI 5 years
ago!).


What does the Ribbon have to with Office installing with a BLUE scheme on
a
Windows XP set up with XP Silver anyway?

They designed the color scheme method with the new Ribbon UI.

Again, why doesn't Office 2007 install with its Silver scheme when it
detects that it's installing on a WindowsXP machine with the XP Silver
scheme? Isn't that logical?


Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com

I stopped wondering about why's half-way through the beta. It's better
for my health that way...

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

"C. Moya" wrote in message
:

"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I like the Ribbon. But you are giving it way way way too much credit.
It's a
pallete. Jasc Paint Shop Pro has done it for the last 4 years (see this
screenshot http://www.cflashsoft.com/temp/psp8sc1.jpg). Even old the old
That's a palette or at best a fancier toolbar.

PhotoDraw orphan did it (remember him?). Office 2007's implementation of
this idea isn't even highly contextual (you have to flip the tabs around
a
lot). It is a *SIMPLE* exploded menu. Sit down and think about it. They
took
the old long vertical menus... and stretched them horizontally. Come on
now.

After someone came up with a great idea, it's always the case that someone
says "oh, it's just that, simply"...Yet, no one else came up with doing it
that way

Again, I like the Ribbon... and I think the Office Team did a great job in
implementing it (after all, it's the meat of what they've done for the last
3 or 4 years... at the expense of lots of other things). I just don't see it
as "revolutionary" as you or the MS Marketing Team would like to think. From
my POV it's kinda like "Duh!!! You guys should have revamped the UI 5 years
ago!).


What does the Ribbon have to with Office installing with a BLUE scheme on
a
Windows XP set up with XP Silver anyway?

They designed the color scheme method with the new Ribbon UI.

Again, why doesn't Office 2007 install with its Silver scheme when it
detects that it's installing on a WindowsXP machine with the XP Silver
scheme? Isn't that logical?


Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com

Patrick;
I think they messed up; personally.
I have to agree with C. Moya; who stated,

"I don't really think normal users care about the technical differences
between Ribbon and Non-ribbon apps. None of what Jensen said (and I've read
it before) explains why some Office 2007 apps on my desktop are BLUE and
others Silver.

Horrible, inconsistent, UI if you ask me. Just plain bad."

I totally agree; about the background color issue.
As a "normal" user,
I careless how it's technically done; people are paid extremely well to
figure that stuff out; and I pay good money for the product.
If I change a color; it should change in every app; not just some; and
some keep that disgusting blue.
Personally LOVE the black /charcoal one; and it's more than annoying that
apps like Publisher or, Microsoft Office Picture Manager- another app that
won't change; insist on that UGLY blue; with no way to change them. I don't
care about their excuses/rationales; they messed up. I hope they come up
with a patch for it . If they can get most to follow the color
guidelines;what's up with this picture? I'm sure ALL those creative
developer minds can figure out how to get the applications to behave in a
consistent manner. Saying it's too hard; or saying; technically "we couldn't
do it" is rationalizing it away, and is an excuse. MY GOD it's background
color we are talking about here;not retooling the entire application.
Laziness?
Don't know; but I bugged it back in beta 2 and I see it wasn't fixed.
The rest of it; I can deal with, but that color issue; really is an
annoyance.

Jeff

"Patrick Schmid [MVP]" wrote in message
...
I like the Ribbon. But you are giving it way way way too much credit.
It's a
pallete. Jasc Paint Shop Pro has done it for the last 4 years (see this
screenshot http://www.cflashsoft.com/temp/psp8sc1.jpg). Even old the old
That's a palette or at best a fancier toolbar.

PhotoDraw orphan did it (remember him?). Office 2007's implementation of
this idea isn't even highly contextual (you have to flip the tabs around
a
lot). It is a *SIMPLE* exploded menu. Sit down and think about it. They
took
the old long vertical menus... and stretched them horizontally. Come on
now.
After someone came up with a great idea, it's always the case that someone
says "oh, it's just that, simply"...Yet, no one else came up with doing it
that way

What does the Ribbon have to with Office installing with a BLUE scheme on
a
Windows XP set up with XP Silver anyway?
They designed the color scheme method with the new Ribbon UI.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

I have to agree with C. Moya.

I realize that the 'ribbon' is unconventional and a complete departure
from what has gone before.

However, so was Windows XP a radical departure from normal Windows in
that you can change the theme to your liking.

Microsoft added that feature. All apps should respect our color
schemes and themes.

And now they come along and give us 3 horribly lousy, completely ugly
colors to select and expect us to be happy with it?

As a designer, I spent a lot of time finding a theme and color scheme
I'm comfortable with.

Not following their own scheme rules by forcing us to use these colors
is just backwards and completely wrong.

-KingSky

KingSky

Unfortunately, the major money earners for MS (Windows and Office) could not
be guaranteed to release on the same time schedule, so Office 2007 was not
built around the new presentation features of Windows Vista.

You can be sure it will on the next release. Although MS give huge sway to
backward-compatibility, this stretches only to the actual application,
rather than whether it works with their 'old' XP operating system.

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


wrote in message
ups.com...
I have to agree with C. Moya.

I realize that the 'ribbon' is unconventional and a complete departure
from what has gone before.

However, so was Windows XP a radical departure from normal Windows in
that you can change the theme to your liking.

Microsoft added that feature. All apps should respect our color
schemes and themes.

And now they come along and give us 3 horribly lousy, completely ugly
colors to select and expect us to be happy with it?

As a designer, I spent a lot of time finding a theme and color scheme
I'm comfortable with.

Not following their own scheme rules by forcing us to use these colors
is just backwards and completely wrong.

-KingSky

That's not an excuse. I've read Jensen's long blog on "color tables" and all
the work that went into creating the canned color schemes and why they HAVE
to be "canned" and not system derived (the way Office 2003 and the "non
ribbon" 2007 apps). bla bla bla. I SWEAR I am seriously hardpressed to see
just what impact any of that had in the final product. Office 2007's silver
scheme (dead grey is a better word) for instance is downright ugly. It's
doesn't even use smooth gradients but rather harsh TWO tone highlights.

I'm at a loss.

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com
"Nick Hodge" wrote in message
...
KingSky

Unfortunately, the major money earners for MS (Windows and Office) could
not be guaranteed to release on the same time schedule, so Office 2007 was
not built around the new presentation features of Windows Vista.

You can be sure it will on the next release. Although MS give huge sway to
backward-compatibility, this stretches only to the actual application,
rather than whether it works with their 'old' XP operating system.

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


wrote in message
ups.com...
I have to agree with C. Moya.

I realize that the 'ribbon' is unconventional and a complete departure
from what has gone before.

However, so was Windows XP a radical departure from normal Windows in
that you can change the theme to your liking.

Microsoft added that feature. All apps should respect our color
schemes and themes.

And now they come along and give us 3 horribly lousy, completely ugly
colors to select and expect us to be happy with it?

As a designer, I spent a lot of time finding a theme and color scheme
I'm comfortable with.

Not following their own scheme rules by forcing us to use these colors
is just backwards and completely wrong.

-KingSky

We'll have to agree to disagree... the themes come way down my list of stuff
that has been added.

Name Manager
CF improvements
Charts (Although a long way to go)
Added functions (still more to come)
Connection string management
PT Improvements

Themes wouldn't even register on this list (IMO)

Additionally, I suspect the issue lies with the UI team, not Excel, Word,
etc and they have enough hurdles to overcome ;-)

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


"C. Moya" wrote in message
...
That's not an excuse. I've read Jensen's long blog on "color tables" and
all the work that went into creating the canned color schemes and why they
HAVE to be "canned" and not system derived (the way Office 2003 and the
"non ribbon" 2007 apps). bla bla bla. I SWEAR I am seriously hardpressed
to see just what impact any of that had in the final product. Office
2007's silver scheme (dead grey is a better word) for instance is
downright ugly. It's doesn't even use smooth gradients but rather harsh
TWO tone highlights.

I'm at a loss.

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com
"Nick Hodge" wrote in message
...
KingSky

Unfortunately, the major money earners for MS (Windows and Office) could
not be guaranteed to release on the same time schedule, so Office 2007
was not built around the new presentation features of Windows Vista.

You can be sure it will on the next release. Although MS give huge sway
to backward-compatibility, this stretches only to the actual application,
rather than whether it works with their 'old' XP operating system.

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


wrote in message
ups.com...
I have to agree with C. Moya.

I realize that the 'ribbon' is unconventional and a complete departure
from what has gone before.

However, so was Windows XP a radical departure from normal Windows in
that you can change the theme to your liking.

Microsoft added that feature. All apps should respect our color
schemes and themes.

And now they come along and give us 3 horribly lousy, completely ugly
colors to select and expect us to be happy with it?

As a designer, I spent a lot of time finding a theme and color scheme
I'm comfortable with.

Not following their own scheme rules by forcing us to use these colors
is just backwards and completely wrong.

-KingSky

Well, I'm not saying Office 2007 doesn't contain improvements. I like the
ribbon (a lot). And Outlook 2007 fixed every single anamoly with cached
exchange mode and disconnected-from-VPN situations. Outlook 2007 *alone*
(for me) is well worth the upgrade. But as a developer that concentrates on
end-user UI's, Office 2007 is just jarring and grating to me in many ways in
terms of overall presentation and consistency.

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com
"Nick Hodge" wrote in message
...
We'll have to agree to disagree... the themes come way down my list of
stuff that has been added.

Name Manager
CF improvements
Charts (Although a long way to go)
Added functions (still more to come)
Connection string management
PT Improvements

Themes wouldn't even register on this list (IMO)

Additionally, I suspect the issue lies with the UI team, not Excel, Word,
etc and they have enough hurdles to overcome ;-)

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


"C. Moya" wrote in message
...
That's not an excuse. I've read Jensen's long blog on "color tables" and
all the work that went into creating the canned color schemes and why
they HAVE to be "canned" and not system derived (the way Office 2003 and
the "non ribbon" 2007 apps). bla bla bla. I SWEAR I am seriously
hardpressed to see just what impact any of that had in the final product.
Office 2007's silver scheme (dead grey is a better word) for instance is
downright ugly. It's doesn't even use smooth gradients but rather harsh
TWO tone highlights.

I'm at a loss.

--
-C. Moya
www.cmoya.com
"Nick Hodge" wrote in message
...
KingSky

Unfortunately, the major money earners for MS (Windows and Office) could
not be guaranteed to release on the same time schedule, so Office 2007
was not built around the new presentation features of Windows Vista.

You can be sure it will on the next release. Although MS give huge sway
to backward-compatibility, this stretches only to the actual
application, rather than whether it works with their 'old' XP operating
system.

--
HTH
Nick Hodge
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Southampton, England
DTHIS
www.nickhodge.co.uk


wrote in message
ups.com...
I have to agree with C. Moya.

I realize that the 'ribbon' is unconventional and a complete departure
from what has gone before.

However, so was Windows XP a radical departure from normal Windows in
that you can change the theme to your liking.

Microsoft added that feature. All apps should respect our color
schemes and themes.

And now they come along and give us 3 horribly lousy, completely ugly
colors to select and expect us to be happy with it?

As a designer, I spent a lot of time finding a theme and color scheme
I'm comfortable with.

Not following their own scheme rules by forcing us to use these colors
is just backwards and completely wrong.

-KingSky