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ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 18th 08, 10:23 PM posted to microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express

ju.c wrote:

I can get free Hotmail in OE, hehehe!


And it is after June 30, 2008 wherever you are? What planet would that
be?
Ads
  #12  
Old April 18th 08, 10:33 PM posted to microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express

Gordon wrote:

"ju.c" wrote in message
...
I can get free Hotmail in OE, hehehe!


Well I can get free Hotmail in Thunderbird. So there.


Not without using additional software, like the Webmail extension
(http://webmail.mozdev.org/index.html) or FreePOPs (don't know if that
still works). Thunderbird alone, the way you mention, doesn't do
Hotmail.
  #13  
Old April 18th 08, 10:53 PM posted to microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
snip
Microsoft Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express
quote
As of June 30, 2008, Microsoft is disabling the DAV protocol and you will
no longer be able to access your Hotmail Inbox [or other Hotmail folders]
via Outlook Express...
/quote
Source:
http://emailsupport.spaces.live.com/...708!5359.entry


Hmm, so they dropped WebDAV access for freebie accounts created after
November 2004. Now they're dropping WebDAV access even for paid
accounts (any create date) and forcing users to their Windows Live Mail
client...


NB: There are Windows Live Hotmail subscribers who currently access their
account(s) in OE via POP3. This change will not affect them.


Wonder how long Microsoft is going to carry those legacy accounts. I've
heard from users of MSN legacy accounts that they still get POP access.
I don't know if the *Hotmail* legacy accounts (legacy as of July 2002
when POP got dropped) continued to get POP access. I thought only the
MSN legacy accounts continued to get POP access.


- 1996 July: Hotmail becomes available.
- 1997 December: Microsoft buys Hotmail.
- 2000 February: For MSN, POP3 access is discontinued and switches to
WebDAV access. MSN "legacy" accounts created before that date continue
to get POP3 access. MSN accounts created after that date only get
WebDAV access.
- 2002 July: For Hotmail, POP3 access is discontinued and switches to
WebDAV access.
- 2004 November: For Hotmail, Microsoft changes policy to disable WebDAV
access for *new* free Hotmail accounts created after that date. Old
(and still active) accounts created before that policy change date
continue to get WebDAV access. New accounts created after that date
must pay to get WebDAV access.
- 2007 June: Microsoft introduces DeltaSync, its replacement for WebDAV.
- 2008 June: Microsoft disables WebDAV and forces use of DeltaSync.

  #14  
Old April 19th 08, 02:14 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

wrote:

Hello All,

I wanted to take some time to address the concerns/questions that have
started on this thread.

Microsoft is doing this to force people onto the client: False. We are
doing this because the DAV protocol is inefficient on larger mailbox sizes.
Once Hotmail upgrade storage space synchronization issues happen within DAV.
DeltaSynch is a stable protocol that will be able to efficiently handle large
accounts.


Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
disclosed?

This locks people into a Microsoft client to access Hotmail: False.


While there was some documentation regarding WebDAV, like
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2291, it really doesn't describe the
command set that is used between client and the Hotmail mail host. So
even if DeltaSync is a published protocol, will enough information be
dispersed by Microsoft to allow other e-mail clients to support
DeltaSync with whatever command set is required to communicate with
Hotmail? If not, users will be locked into using Microsoft e-mail
clients.


Hotmail customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below,
other clients such as Thunderbird.


As best as I can piece together, and after updating it today, my record
of Hotmail's history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
sources) is:

Hotmail history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
sources)

- 1996 July: Hotmail becomes available. Provides a webmail interface to
e-mail service.
- 1997 December: Microsoft buys Hotmail to include in their MSN
services.
- 1999 August: Anyone can log into any Hotmail account using the
password "eh"
(http://www.wired.com/science/discove...1999/08/21503).
- 1999 December: Microsoft forgets to pay their passport.com domain
renewal fee. Hotmail is unavailable on Christmas Eve. A Linux
consultant pays the fee and Hotmail comes back up.
- 2000 February: For MSN Hotmail, POP3 access is discontinued and
switches to WebDAV access. MSN "legacy" accounts created before that
date continue
to get POP3 access. MSN Hotmail accounts created after that date only
get WebDAV access which restricts them to using Microsoft's Outlook or
Outlook Express e-mail clients (later some plug-ins or proxies become
available to allow non-Microsoft e-mail clients to access Hotmail but
they get killed in 2004 November except for paid accounts when WebDAV
access gets pulled from free accounts).
- 2002 July: For free Hotmail accounts, POP3 access is discontinued and
switches to WebDAV access. Hotmail PLUS (paying customers) gets
POP3/SMTP mail host access.
- 2003 (autumn): Microsoft forgets to pay their hotmail.co.uk domain
renewal fee. Another good Samaritan pays the fee. No downtime.
- 2004 November: Microsoft changes policy to disable WebDAV access for
*new* free Hotmail accounts created after that date. Old (and still
active) free accounts created before that policy change date (i.e.,
grandfathered accounts) continue to get WebDAV access. After this date,
Microsoft charges for WebDAV access. New plug-ins and proxies start
showing up to compensate. Old plug-ins and proxies still work with
non-Microsoft e-mail clients for *paid* Hotmail accounts where WebDAV
access remains.
- 2005 November: Microsoft officially announces Windows Live Mail
(codename Kahuna), later rebranded to Windows Live Hotmail. Goes
through some beta testing.
- 2006 November: Windows Live Hotmail first released to existing and new
Netherlands users as a pilot market.
- 2007 May: Microsoft releases Windows Live Hotmail to worldwide market.
Users can elect to stay with the MSN Hotmail or try the new Windows Live
Hotmail (classic or full) interface. They are given an option (which
eventually disappears) to switch back to MSN Hotmail.
- 2007 June: Microsoft introduces DeltaSync, its replacement for WebDAV.
- 2007 September: Users start reporting that Microsoft begins
involuntarily *forcing* MSN Hotmail users to migrate to the Windows Live
Hotmail interface. One day they were using MSN Hotmail, the next they
were forced to Windows Live Hotmail without any action on their part,
and they cannot switch back.
- 2007 September: POP3 access returns only for Windows Live Hotmail Plus
(paid) accounts but not for MSN Hotmail Premium (paid) accounts.
Requires SSL connects and SMTP authentication (pop3.live.com port 995,
smtp.live.com port 25 with SMTP authentication, SSL on both).
- 2008 June: Microsoft disables WebDAV on all accounts and forces use of
DeltaSync protocol. For free Windows Live Hotmail accounts, users will
need to use Outlook 2003 or 2007 with the Outlook Connector plug-in
(post-1.8 version) or the Windows Live Mail client. For PAID Windows
Live Hotmail accounts, users can use any POP3/SMTP e-mail client. The
webmail interface remains available for free and paid accounts as it has
been ever since Hotmail existed.

So you'll need to qualify your statement to "Only Windows Live Hotmail
*PLUS* customers are able to utilize POP3 as of November 2007".
"Hotmail" by itself includes all types of accounts: MSN, Hotmail, or
Windows Live Hotmail and free or paid. Only the paid Windows Live
Hotmail accounts get POP/SMTP access.

Though Live Mail is optimized for usage against Hotmail, it
is not the single choice for connection. You will also be able to continue
full access through your browser.


Webmail access has been the substantive interface to Hotmail since its
debut almost 12 years ago in 1996. Nothing new there although it has
gone through facelifts and now adds Ajax. I don't think any Hotmail
user has ever pondered on policy changes, lack of POP/SMTP access,
WebDAV loss, change to DeltaSync, or the other myriad of changes to
non-webmail access to Hotmail to then wonder if there won't be a webmail
interface to Hotmail.

I forget when Microsoft decided to reduce from 2 to 1 advertisements in
the webmail interface to Hotmail but there are still plenty of users
that NEVER want to deal with the webmail interface despite the full
version of Windows Live Mail trying to act like a regular e-mail client.
You've seen a lot of whoopla over whether or not there is a webmail
interface to Hotmail?
  #15  
Old April 19th 08, 02:55 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

- Hotmail begins with a webmail interface and provides POP3/SMTP access.
- POP3/SMTP were yanked by Microsoft and replaced with WebDAV.
- WebDAV is considered inadequate and replaced with DeltaSync.
- POP3/SMTP were added back to paid Hotmail accounts.

So if WebDAV was inadequate, why go to DeltaSync at all? Obviously
POP3/SMTP was considered adequate since it was re-offered on paid
accounts (and one MS blog says that it is planned to show up for free
accounts in another 12 months, and that blog was dated back in Nov
2007).

Microsoft goes to DeltaSync *AND* goes back to POP3/SMTP, so why not
just go back to POP3/SMTP? Actually I'd like to see IMAP offered. I'm
really not interested in yet another Microsoft proprietary protocol that
non-Microsoft clients cannot support.

Found an interesting blog of a meeting at:

POP3 on Hotmail Explained: we talk to Omar Shahine
http://www.liveside.net/blogs/interview/default.aspx

which has the meeting recorded (audio only) at:
http://www.liveside.net/files/folder.../download.aspx

When playing in Windows Media Player, under View - Enchancements,
disable SRS (if on) and use the graphic equalizer to drop the bass end
to make the audio more clear.

They are making the same presumption as does GMail: the user wants to
leave all their e-mails up on the server whether read or not. Not me.
I want to locally manage all my e-mails. I don't want to leave them on
the server. So the huge disk space quotas proclaimed by Hotmail, Yahoo
Mail, Gmail, and others means very little to me. I yank the messages so
they are local and I don't need all that disk space for the mailbox.
Far more important is the per-message-size quota as regards to me
retrieving those message. Fortunately I haven't been afflicted with
boob senders that spew huge-sized messages because they know how to put
large files in online disk space and provide a link to it, or I'll
educate them on how to do that.

Microsoft is thinking of e-mail going forward as a substitute for file
transfer protocols (FTP) and obviously e-mail was never designed for
that. It was designed under a trust model to deliver large volumes of
small messages. Omar talks about tens of thousands of messages in the
mailbox whereas I never have more than a couple dozen because of my
e-mail client polling and yanking the e-mails not a whole lot after when
the e-mail arrived (I poll anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes depending on
the use of a particular account and its level of traffic). I do not
want large messages. If I started to get them, I'd configure Outlook to
NOT download them, I'd use the webmail interface to check them, and I'd
probably tell the sender to put their huge e-mail in an anatomical
orifice.
  #16  
Old April 19th 08, 07:46 AM posted to microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress
David Morgan \(MAMS\)
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Posts: 3
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express


"ANONYMOUS" wrote in message ...


PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:


NB: There are Windows Live Hotmail subscribers who currently access
their account(s) in OE via POP3. This change will not affect them.



In fact Windows Live Mail allows you to access hotmail account free of
charge even if it is a new account. The idea is MS wants everybody to
use Windows Live Email. OE is a dated technology and it is time to put
it in the museum!!



Live mail is auto-logging.... kisses the ass of Uncle Sam. Homeland Zecurity
loves it and wants *everyone* to use it.... makes everything much easier.









  #17  
Old April 19th 08, 08:21 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
PA Bear [MS MVP]
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Posts: 3,647
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

Please ask your Windows Live Mail-specific question he
microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

Via the web-interface:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...mail .desktop

Via your newsreader:
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsof...e.mail.desktop
--
~PA Bear


VanguardLH wrote:
snip
Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
disclosed?

snip

  #18  
Old April 19th 08, 08:58 AM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

(had to be added manually since PA Bear incorrectly leaves the sigdash
delimiter BEFORE the quoted content - and many non-Microsoft NNTP
clients comply with RFC as to placement and will also strip the
signature from replies. OE has a registry hack to move the signature to
its proper position at the end of the reply.)
snip
Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
disclosed?

snip

Please ask your Windows Live Mail-specific question he
microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

Via the web-interface:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...mail .desktop

Via your newsreader:
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsof...e.mail.desktop


Asking for documentation or an SDK for DeltaSync is not a question about
how to use the Windows Live Mail client.
  #19  
Old April 19th 08, 08:43 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,313
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

It's not a question for IE- and/or OE-newsgroups either.


You mean the groups to which YOU chose to submit your original post.
  #20  
Old April 21st 08, 05:07 PM posted to microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.browser,microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress,microsoft.public.outlookexpress.general,microsoft.public.internetexplorer.general
Windows Live Mail Technologies Support
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Posts: 2
Default ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Expre

To correct myself...

Hotmail customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below, other
clients such as Thunderbird.

I meant Hotmail PLUS customers are able to utilize POP3 as they currently
do...


--
Scott Hammer
Sr. Support Program Manager
Windows Live Mail Technologies
Microsoft Corporation
"Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"
crosoft.com wrote in
message ...
Hello All,

I wanted to take some time to address the concerns/questions that have
started on this thread.

Microsoft is doing this to force people onto the client: False. We are
doing this because the DAV protocol is inefficient on larger mailbox
sizes.
Once Hotmail upgrade storage space synchronization issues happen within
DAV.
DeltaSynch is a stable protocol that will be able to efficiently handle
large
accounts.

This locks people into a Microsoft client to access Hotmail: False.
Hotmail
customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below, other clients
such
as Thunderbird. Though Live Mail is optimized for usage against Hotmail,
it
is not the single choice for connection. You will also be able to
continue
full access through your browser.

Does this affect Live Hotmail and Outlook Connector - Yes. Any user
utilizing Outlook connector 1.8 or earlier will need to upgrade to the new
OLC. Live Mail is currently DeltaSynch ready and Live Hotmail is
available
through your browser.


--
Scott Hammer
Sr. Supportability Program Manager
Windows Live Mail Technologies
Microsoft Corporation


"PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote:

[Crossposted to OE General, OE6, IE General, & IE6 newsgroups;
Followup-To
set for OE General]

Microsoft Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express
quote
As of June 30, 2008, Microsoft is disabling the DAV protocol and you will
no
longer be able to access your Hotmail Inbox [or other Hotmail folders]
via
Outlook Express...
/quote
Source:
http://emailsupport.spaces.live.com/...708!5359.entry

======================

Please Note:

1. Installing Windows Live Mail /may/ disable your access to Outlook
Express.

2. Installing Windows Live Mail /may/ change your default Mail Client
from
Outlook Express to Windows Live Mail.

3. The Windows Live "all-in-one" installer /may/ install more than just
Windows Live Mail. If you decide to try Windows Live Mail, UNCHECK any
unwanted Windows Live applications (e.g., Windows Live Messenger; Windows
Live Toolbar; Windows Live Family Safety) before proceeding with the
installation!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Windows Live Mail-specific newsgroup:
microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

Via the web-interface:
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...mail .desktop

Via your newsreader:
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsof...e.mail.desktop
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Desktop Experience - since 2002
AumHa VSOP & Admin http://aumha.net
DTS-L http://dts-l.net/



 




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